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Aikidoboy
Old Hand
13 Posts |
 Posted - 19/11/2006 : 21:28:12
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People keep telling me to relax during training, which I try to take on board and do. This does not seem to be working al that well.
Has any one got a help hint please?
remember kiss
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PaulB
Overfiend
50 Posts |
 Posted - 20/11/2006 : 12:21:39
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A very good question tom, this is one that everyone has trouble with to begin with.
The key with this is awareness. We could give you specific tips, but they probably wouldn't be very useful, as solving a specific point of tension in a technique can often just create another if you haven't yet aquired the sensation of full-body "relaxation" (which may in fact be a bad word for describing it, as the sensation is more that of not struggling against anything and not attempting to exert effort).
The only thing really is to pay attention when you are applying a technique to how it feels. Does it feel like you're making a physical effort, or exerting force? If you start to pay attention to it and become aware of the detrimental effects it has on your technique then it will go away by itself.
Besides that all you can do is be patient. The taijutsu itself is a vehicle which helps create in the student an understanding of themselves and principles of efficient movement, and will pass the 'relaxation' principle on to you, given time. By which i hasten to add, i don't mean to say "go away and be patient and you'll learn!", its very good that you're considering such things and looking carefully at your training, even if certain things just take time. An awareness of something will often speed up your acquisition or acceptance of it.
Its a fine and very relevant question.
A final significant point is that this awareness (like most things in ninpo) is not something that can be taught to you, instead it is an understanding that people have to come to for themselves deeply and honestly, and which the higher grades like us dans can simply try to share and encourage.
Gambatte! (keep going!) |
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PaulB
Overfiend
50 Posts |
 Posted - 20/11/2006 : 12:24:38
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| P.S - Whats with 'remember kiss' ? seems a rather strange signature note! |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2006 : 12:45:11
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Keep It Simple Smartie would be my guess, either that or he's likes his dress-up rock bands with fake blood?! Paul
Matt
more to follow from me on this one
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Aikidoboy
Old Hand
13 Posts |
Posted - 20/11/2006 : 22:13:54
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kiss means "keep it simple stupid" so well done matt nearly there
remember kiss |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 21/11/2006 : 08:23:52
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something i learnt from big carl is something to do with positive reinforcement, use smartie rather than stupid.
Smartie i think suggests ur almost there, similar to this thread, stupid implies an air of superiority which is to be avoided, being humble helps, and may help with your relaxation.
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Jo M
Newbie
9 Posts |
Posted - 21/11/2006 : 15:31:39
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Haha! I understand Tom... People still tell me to relax, but being aware of it sometimes doesn't help and makes you even less relaxed because you're trying to work out how to relax!!! In this case, it just becomes frustrating - certainly not conducive to a relaxed body and mind!
I find that forcing anything or doing anything that feels uncomfortable normally means I'm not relaxed (as I'm small and weak I know very quickly if I'm trying to use strength as it simply won't work on anyone!! if something feels uncomfortable it normally suggests there's a problem with my balance, and often this is because of poor distancing etc). If I recognise it's not working because I'm not relaxed, I often find breathing in then out and relaxing whole body as I breathe out (what my mum told me to do when lying in bed unable to sleep) can 'reset' my body and occassionally kickstarts it into working efficiently again!
Jo
"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute." |
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Antonik
Old Hand
16 Posts |
Posted - 21/11/2006 : 20:31:06
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I'm with Jo- if you are using force you are doing something wrong - if you're not sure grab one of the big guys for a minute, it will soon be obvious if a technique works or not (i find this helps if im training with Jo or Beth as I can use force on them, you will probably have a longer list of people that you can use force on than me!). Also think about how you move. Things seem to flow if its being done right. If its jerky, its probably wrong.
"For that which once existed is no more, and that which was not has come to be; and so the whole round of motion is gone through again." Ovid, Metamorphoses |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 23/11/2006 : 14:13:10
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i think maybe relax has been used as the wrong term, maybe let go. Let go, of your preconception of the technique, let go of all the eccentricities of the technique, and focus on the simple facts of the technique. Don't try and be perfect at it, certainly not first time, yet that's what people think they can achieve, you need to do the technique simply and build it up, get the feet, then the hands then the overall movement or something like that. People panic a little with all the information for a technique it can be like sensory overload, so you stop paying attention to bits or your mind slows down a little to comprehend, or fills in the blanks with prior experiences. this leads on to another thing which is to relax/let go of preconditioning, if you have done something before it's important to let it take a back seat while you learn what is being shown.
The other thing is people often say relax and people think relax the body, which is one aspect, but thats gradually developed through training and practicing. The important thing is actually relax the mind, and getting comfortable with what your doing, this in itself will help with the techniques, less panicky means less stress ergo less tension kinda like relaxing.
Hope these ramblings make sense
Matt
Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence - Spanish Proverb |
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Owen
Old Hand
22 Posts |
Posted - 23/11/2006 : 17:04:14
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One of the problems I have is that I'm often unaware of my state of tension. Then sometimes, someone will say "relax" and I'll suddenly realise just how tense my body is. From these fleeeting moments, I'm pretty sure that I'm way too tense most of the time, without even realising.
What I gather from your last post, Matt, is that relaxation can come from a greater understanding of the techniques and movement (and of course, the whole natural movement thing, which makes sense). Hopefully I'll experience this sooner rather than later! 
Owen
"It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance?" - Ronald Reagan |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 23/11/2006 : 17:12:51
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Maybe, maybe relaxation comes as an extension of understanding what your body, is or rather isn't doing, maybe viewing techniques as the simplest thing body movement. Depends largely on the person, there are people who are very naturally relaxed, others who aren't simply put. You need to work out for yourself all advice is given here by people who may not have the same problem and think too much (I know because I am one), if thats how you work things out owen, try to focus less on whats going on outside, and focus a little more on your own body. I think focusing on the technique will largely work against you at times.
But that's my opinion
Matt
Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence - Spanish Proverb |
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Pat
Newbie
4 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 22:21:02
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Some people seem to find the relaxed movement comes very naturally, although sadly I've learned that I'm not one of them! And as Jo said, I think one issue is that when I realise this and try to relax, it can become even harder, because I'm consciously focussing on it (although that said sometimes when I realise how tense I am, I can relax myself, albeit temporarily, and not to the level that would be ideal). Its been helpful reading some of the comments here, and I think in time the relaxation will come subconsciously, as I continue to train.
Pat
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I see, I forget. I hear, I remember. I do, I understand.
-Chinese proverb |
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thekeeper
Waffler Extraordinaire
55 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 01:29:34
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I hate to say it but i think two issues are being discussed using the same word but meaning 2 things. And i blame the black belts/higher kye grades. He he. We always tend to think way to deep about these things as we have been doing the art for way way to long (some of us anyway) and forget how it was when we first started.
I know that i'm one of the people that tells you to relax. When i say it to you i'm meaning purely physically. The majority of movement in ninja is relaxed. Its faster and takes less effort. Not that tensing doesn't have its place, strikes and throws for example. I know this because i had big problems when i first started. the body has to relax to move. The easiest way i found to get over it is to smile. be happy and u relax. i know us coming and telling u to relax probably doesn't help. sorry. everyone should enjoy thier training. if u don't ur doing something wrong (not hitting alex enough probably). just try and concentrate on relaxing ur shoulders when training. once ur used to having relaxed shoulders u work down ur body till it all feels relaxed and subtle. don't worry to much. it takes years!!!!! Karle still tells me to relax at times. the people that do it naturally are freaks and deserve to be shot.
The idea of a relaxed mind comes later. in ninja there are three levels of training. Your body, your mind, your spirit. you don't have to be worrying about ur mind yet and definatly not ur spirit.
hope this helps.
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Edited by - thekeeper on 05/12/2006 01:32:29 |
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Alex_W
Old Hand
21 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 01:42:02
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I think that its important to point out here that yes it is good to be relaxed as tori in a technique as it allows more freedom of movement which leads to the opening of more opportunities to apply techniques, but training with a partner has two learning roles. Tori AND uke.
(Here is where i may be getting the wrong end of the stick, or not being able to explain myself properly)
Whilst your an uke, you need to attack your tori with intent. Attacking them completly relaxed means that its very hard to apply a technique. Take Mushidori (kihon #7) for example, its increadably hard to apply when your uke lets their arm go completly limp during the technique. As uke, you dont learn how the technique feels, and so lose an important part of training (in my mind). Yes, you need to be relaxed to a point so that you don't break yourself, but there is a combination of relaxation and intent that needs to be found, and once the technique has been applied to a point, relax, and the technique dissapears. Voila, you have remained intact, and have experienced the technique as it should be. As i said, i may have completely miss understood, but thats the way i see it.
As to how to be able to relax, in the first place... well i think that will just take practise, especially if your new to martial arts. You may just need time to grow accustomed to being attacked repeatedly for 6 hours a week. With training comes the ability to cope with these situations and your body will be able to relax. As i belive one point Coops tries to get across at his sessions, training is a tool, used to narrow the gap between real life and the dojo. Essentailly we hope that if the worse were to happen and find yourself in a situation, you can remain relaxed enough to come up with some tactic for escape from it as quickly as possible. I fear i may have done a bit of a Queenie and wondered off topic.
Basically, i think that with time, you will find you begin to relax more in training. Its taken me over 4 years to work that out. At least your asking at the start!!!
Alex
Damnit! I cant think of anything intelligent to say! - Me |
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Alex_W
Old Hand
21 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 01:48:10
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Damn you Adam! Writing a reply whilst i was writing mine. Had i have known you were impling people should beat me more, would have worked in some subtle insult that would have taken you the rest of your (unusually long BSci) course to work out! :P
Damnit! I cant think of anything intelligent to say! - Me |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 12:14:39
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what are the 2 different meanings of relax adam? You never really allude to it.
Secondly I think that to relax physically, you also need to relax mentally, which some people don't do when they come across say a bigger person, someone who makes them uncomfortable or simply a higher grade. But then you suggest that they need to relax only physically yet your solution is: "The easiest way i found to get over it is to smile. be happy and u relax" which isn't really a physical relaxation more a mental act.
Just curious really. Not meaning to be anything but a quirky smile! Sorry Adam! 
Alex is right though people take on board the relax and then apply it to both sides of the equation, and associate it with a lack of intent in the attack, somebody with no intention of an attack, rarely needs to be defended from ask for a demo is you want, the best way is to either see it or feel it. Too much discussion perhaps (rich coming from me I know but somebody had to say it!)
Matt
Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence - Spanish Proverb |
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relax
