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splinter
Old Hand
19 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2006 : 13:57:06
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Okay guys,girl's, ladies, gents, Shadows and Oni.
The words below, are my take on Hastsumi and Takamatsu Soke's, and idea's/thoughts of my own.
Hatsumi Soke says today there is no good philosophy, that the heart is the most important part of the philosophy of today, that we must have Kyojutsu Ten Kan Ho(the art of Changing) as our way
I think this comes from realising that the basic is not so basic, or may be it as come about from better understanding...I am not sure.
What we now strive for is Shin Ki To Ichi (the heart,universe and weapon as one..to quote Rambo The mind is the strongest weapon we have)
Okay time to start wee weeing some people off, but this happens because of those with Atama Ga Katai (expalantion later).
Many people think that Ninjutsu/Ninpo are combat oriented, but in truth,if you are doing real Ninjutsu/Ninpo then the reality is that the spiritual aspect of it is never far from the surface.There are those that will say that this path is down to the indvidual to follow, but is that just their short fallings?. There are people who will still train and be trained in this way, but this is not true ninjutsu/Ninpo ( okay lets call it True Ninpo, so those who do not wish to look for the truth can still train and teach in Ninjutsu...and those that want a Baransu, true path can teach that way....see Baransu and Atama Ga Katai later for those I have wee weeed off out there).
So if we wish to find true Ninpo it should contain the following, mental discipline and exploration of self, how to channel energy ki/tao, energy raising techniques, and special kamae/non kamae,(stances) taisabaki (movement),Kokyu waza (breath work),Ninshiki Waza (sensory training) Messo(no mind explained later)and Menriki(awareness training).
This also comes from Jiyu Ni (being free in mind and body)..Okay some at this point will go what the!,or deep for me, but no keep on reading all may become clear. Pino Sensei as already started to teach us Shizen Ni (natrual movement)..if we are free from conventional or minor patterns of thought then we can be raised to Uchu(universal level..see the begining of this essay) and no keep reading.
With this training we should find Junan (flexibility of mind/body), this means that if we can teach this and understand this, that if we make a mistake in our training that our mind and our body are free to us the mistake to flow into a fresh solution.But this only comes if we are not locked into one pattern of thought/one technique in mind.
One must find the Baransu (balance) it is not about Shobu/Kachimake (winning or loosing),Kyojaku/tsuyoiyowai (strong or weak),hayai/Osoi (fast or slow) it is about holding the balance between the two when it comes to Jissen (real fight/life).the object is not to win orbecome strong, but to be Ikiru (alive) at the end.
(Time to Pee some people off again, I guess).
Many Martial artists will present fine thories for kata techniques, but in the long run this tends to force us into one set way of thinking or responding, we must have Katachi Wa Nai (no fixed form) as our way, this comes from Nagare (flow) and comes about from dispensing with thinking about individual techniques, if we can do this we have no fixed points for Uke(attacker) to work upon.This comes about from also not carrying our techniques in our hands, but having Hiza To Sebone Ga Daiji(strong base/knees/spine) your legs/spine should be your base that your techniques should flow from, which leaves your hands free to do what is needed.This also comes with correct Ma Ai distance and timing, if we can get this we can leave the Uke (attacker) floating in space (in more ways than one) with nothing to cling onto not even our intent, for we have non.If we can move freely with in the space provided,clinging onto nothing, then you can not be defeated.This is where we can see those with Atama Ga Katai (inflexible attitudes), this is shown in there Taijutsu(too) those who try to win, use power and are set in hard ways..which as we have said when it comes to Jissen would get you truelly hurt, or dead.
So I hope this will get all of you thinking, all of you searching and asking for Real Ninpo training, all trying to understand the true depth of the true basics, which can be done with the Sanshin No Kata, or true Sanshin No Kata which shows us how to accept both sides, hold the balance and find the Middle, or zero point.
True Sanshin I can write about in another Essay.
But I hope this will get you all thinking, trying to understand,asking questions and as I said looking for true Ninpo, not just the reflection.
Buyu ikan Karle
ksthomas
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RichL
Old Hand
15 Posts |
Posted - 13/05/2006 : 20:55:26
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Is it possible to follow no path and not be worried? Through ignorance or indiferance be allowed to wander through the choices of life and be able only to see the path in hind-sight?
ok i'll stop the yoda stuff. i am intreagued to know wether training and determination can remove the intent of a 'fighter'. We are trying to learn to both to think on our feet and yet not think of what we do, at all.
Hopeing one day to teach others i have spent too much free time trying to figure out what i know, and its REALLY hard. with modesty i can say i have played with a matial art but don't know what to teach of it. i can show many katas (many of the same one!) and lots of tricks but what my body has learnt my mind can't diferentiate from what i new before.
I would be very interested to hear what Karle can remember about starting to teach, because our disscutions on learning are irrelevant if we don't know what our instructor is trying to show us.
too much free time so mind is running away from me.
"the pointy end goes in the other guy" |
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Antonik
Old Hand
16 Posts |
Posted - 14/05/2006 : 19:01:01
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have always seen katas as a good starting place. a way to learn how to start to move. so if we should avoid using them where would u say we should start (esp as we walk to striaght and locked out to be moving naturally for the techniques to use that as a starting point)? Also what do u try and concentrate on and devleop first w/ breath work, stances, movement, chi work etc? Or is the idea that you are teached all at once and they are developed at the same time?
"For that which once existed is no more, and that which was not has come to be; and so the whole round of motion is gone through again." Ovid, Metamorphoses |
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2006 : 10:14:50
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Having finally gotten round to checking the forum again, i thought i would add to this thread as this subject is basically always bubbling just below the surface for everyone who trains and that is why does anyone train in Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu / "Real Ninpo" ?
The first point i would like to make is i totally concur with Karle's idea's however the point i'm trying to make is that when everyone starts it is to learn some form of self defence,for me i was twelve when i first found out about Hatsumi Soke & Bujinkan and since then it was the only path i wanted to follow.
When i finally started ,i tried to copy everything i was shown and i tried to emulate Hatsumi Soke ,the Shihan and every Black Belt i've ever had the privilage of coming into contact with.
Thinking about it now maybe i was seeing the reflection but as the old chinese saying goes " a reflection on a pool does not reveal it's depth"!
I'm starting to waffle now but i will try to get back on point.
When Hatsumi started to show Ninpo to a wider audience such as us Gaijin did he talk abount the spirtuality behind what we should be doing of course not he showed the omote (the outer ,techniques)knowing that first to find the inner or ura our minds & bodies would have to be trained & balanced.Without Kata would there be 900 years of Gyoko Ryu history .No of course not ,to learn anything you need a structure whether it be Driving or Taisabaki but once you learn those most fundamental basics you can then go on and basically act on auto-pilot for want of a better phrase .Kamae,Sanshin & Kihon serves well to help to teach beginners the 'basics' of timing, distance ,balance & pain.You have to learn a techninque to then go and forget it.
Final point Hatsumi had many sensei before the Martial Winds blew Hatsumi & Takamatsu together and overall Hatsumi has spent 60 or so years following the enlightented warriors path his teaching has evolved from how he originally taught it to a more balanced overview controlling the Kukan (space) instead of just the opponent.Point being everyone wants to train as Hats now but without the long journey ,Hats and the Bujinkan as evolved but without the hard work can we as indiviuals do the same !!!!
Obviously the above points of view are mine and do not reflect the overall views of the Uni Club or the Bujinkan as a whole.
Big Carl
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 11:13:31
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Is there anyone out there?
Did i kill that thread ,stone dead? |
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RichL
Old Hand
15 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 23:44:35
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Yep!...
No not realy I'm still here
a lighter question/statment/jibbering...
A faith in the inner spirit can do amazing things for a warrior, a man who believes totaly in his technique is a force to be recond with. with the right mind set a person can put their fist through a block of concreate. but i have also seen a man cut himself to the bone because he thought he could stop a machette with his forearm.
you can teach a movement, then try and teach the feeling ( its like hitting a rock, or like burning through your opponant) but without that little extra spark of somthing, one person is a novice one is a master.
I hope this is the thing we all strive to learn each in our own way.
"the pointy end goes in the other guy" |
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splinter
Old Hand
19 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2006 : 20:55:55
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Come on all you Shodan, what are your thoughts, Stu, Paul, Dave P.Adam.
Matt think it was good Carl did not hear Svens talk!!!
ksthomas |
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 07:51:40
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Why's that then?
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2006 : 09:15:58
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My post on this topic will hit your screens after i have finished my report.
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 20/06/2006 : 12:07:01
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Have you finished that report then yet Matt ?
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 20/06/2006 : 13:17:15
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Have I B*******!
It ain't due till the end of the month. It's a work in progress.
Have faith and patience, you never know it may be s****!
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 24/08/2006 : 17:04:24
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So it’s been a long time coming, and I hope its makes sense to me, let alone the rest of you! Also this is my humble opinion it may count for nothing, it may not we’ll see.
Seems like this conversation has come a rather round bout route to say: that some people need to be thinking more, others need to be thinking less; and that martial arts (note not ninpo) is about a journey and your training is very muh the personal trip. What I mean by this is that Karle pointed us that we need to think and feel right when doing this and look towards the internal but he also highlights the importance to train, Carl on the other hand has suggested that the external and emphasis on the basics should be as equal in importance, if not possibly greater? It really is leading to a discussion of the multi-facetted art that we study.
When trying to understand ninpo I think it will always be difficult for people to compare experiences just because your asking people to agree on something which is very personal, for a simple analogy some guys like tits, others arse, while some maybe like the eyes! The same with ninpo people look for what they want, something we all very proudly wear is ninpo-budo. We merge the two together when we train we need to feed the mind, and feed the body too, starving one or the other has detrimental effects it is easy to observe with the body, with the mind it can be more complex!
One other thing is that karle didn’t say we shouldn’t be training the body, he never suggests that katas in themselves are bad he says that not having the flexibility to work around them, to maybe see what is behind the waza, and view them ultimately as henka. Everything he suggest can in theory have mind, body or even spirit (one of my rudimentary understandings on sanshin).
So what do I think, everything people have said is right, but will be different from my opinion, this is a personal art so people get what they want out of it, and you can see it by taking a step back maybe you see just the technique, maybe you see the principle, maybe you see a concept or an idea, maybe you see a flow. Begs the question; which is right? Asked in a rhetorical fashion, as the only person that can answer that for you: IS YOU.
This really isn’t a thread on energy or physicality or spirituality, it is more understanding how to understand, I see that ninpo is only really an extension of budo, the art started being taught as ninpo either togakure ryu ninpo or bujinkan ninpo taijutsu, but the art has evolved into its incarnation as bujinkan budo taijutsu, so at what point did ninpo stop and budo start. I don’t think it ever did, I think that they are the same thing just being viewed from a different perspective, hence the starting with the kata but moving away from the big steps and simple movements to the smaller steps and more natural movements. But then again ninpo and budo really don’t just apply to our training it more understanding life as a whole.
Relax go with the flow and train, you don’t fight to understand things, normally things dawn on people, “things happen when you least expect them”.
When I started I looked at things objectively as a scientist, this goes here that goes there, he falls down, I’ve started to let go of that a little and start to feel the training. The more I begin to see the more I think that there should be no fixed way to understand it, sometimes I want to see techniques through a microscope; other times I want to see things as if out of focus.
Just my way of doing things I guess, but true ninpo, or true budo should be what YOUR heart, YOUR mind, YOUR gut says. If it doesn’t feel right to you take a step back. Take things that are said and described onboard maybe they’ll make sense in a few years, maybe they won’t. You learn through your own experiences, but maybe just maybe you can learn from somebody elses.
Guess there is only really one guy who can tell you which is the right way, but I doubt any of us would truly understand.
Right now that I've made you all read this bullsh*t!
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Antonik
Old Hand
16 Posts |
Posted - 26/08/2006 : 21:01:14
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the problem is that to get to the true ninpo you have to go though the reflection. You cannot go, well, the instructor put is foot here, his arm here and then his leg here. Yes, you may get techniques to vaguly work (I know, ive done it that way) but its not the martial art, whatever it is, you are just coping someone without any understanding. But to understand takes the willingness of the person and that is not always there. For understanding means asking questions and exploring and you may not always like what you find. Understanding can also change your perspective on things, which if all you have come to learn is how to hit someone, you may not like. First I think you need to think about what you want, and are willing to learn. Because if you are not willing to learn anything it doesnt matter how good your teacher is.
"For that which once existed is no more, and that which was not has come to be; and so the whole round of motion is gone through again." Ovid, Metamorphoses |
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 29/08/2006 : 08:45:22
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About Bloody time Matt !!!!
Very succinctly put ,it seems you are still a scientist but you are now thinking about the feeling and not the technique.This is a Tiger's leap in your training,you are definately on your path.
As for Mich you have also hit the nail on the head,if someone is unwilling to really put the effort in can any learning really take place & is there really any benefit to be had for the student or the teacher.So i suppose what my first long winded post on this thread was all about was effort & intention!!With learning comes understanding ,with understanding comes the ability to improve.
The ability to improve helps us to become better people and that is what Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is all about !!
Any more thoughts to add anyone? |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 30/08/2006 : 15:54:54
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Guess people just need to work at it I guess, and discuss with your teacher when problems arise. If you feel like your stagnating then ask maybe the little guidance will make you reflect both outwardly and inwardly concerning the martial art. I'm not sure how much you need to understand to improve, I think sometimes it's only necessary to give thought to but not necessarily understand.
Guess we need to see what the "old man" thinks!
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Food for the mind/ true ninpo path.
