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splinter
Old Hand
19 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2006 : 20:20:14
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Hi Guys and Girls, a few words on Juppo Sessho from Soke and myself.
We have mentioned Juppo Sessho as being the Tiger and the Dragon.
The tiger attacks, while the Dragon Defends. The Tiger strikes, while the Dragon is lead to lock/throw etc by the uke.The tiger acts to the here and now while the Dragon sees where the conflict will end.
Soke says that " Juppo Sessho is nothing that you can hold or really teach  , it is more a feeling, thus nothing you can hold on to, but if you look for this feeling you will find nothing". I think Soke means that you can not go looking to find the Juppo Sessho feeling, that it comes about from years of training. It is like watching, or trying to understand Soke, it is not going to happen, he is Juppo Sessho look at him listen to his words, and take one point of that which he says, or of the techniques you have seen him do, {or two/three point if you are Shihan } and work on those, and maybe, just maybe Juppo Sessho will sneek upon you just like a Ninja.
Soke also says of Juppo Sessho " Do not think, Juppo Sessho is not a concept, it is reading between the lines". "The Dragon see's all and knows all, thus the tiger act's".
So I guess to end, Juppo Sessho is being able to read between the stripes, so to speak!
T.T.F.N Splinter
ksthomas
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ivesjz
Banging On A Bit
75 Posts |
 Posted - 14/09/2006 : 08:39:49
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You said that we can't really learn by watching and trying to understand Soke, but we have to experience it, and this rings bells for me. It also made me think that this was analagous to a fight itself. A lot of what we do involves looking at the way fights work and trying to control them. But, more and more, I've come to see a conflict/fight as something whch evolves on it's own. The participants can influence it, but not control it. Things like chance, gravity and an unexpectedly skillful opponent, or an unexpectedly dumb one who doesn't respond as he/she 'should', will always get in the way.
So, I wonder, is Juppo Sessho about reading between the lines of a conflict, and seeing what we can and can't control, and learning to become almost a spectator of a phenomenon (the fight) which has a life of it's own?
You've always told us in the dojo, if we're trying to perform a technique and it doesn't work, to turn it into something else rather than just stop and start again. Is this what you were talking about? Realising at some point that we are no longer in control of what we were trying to do, and so accepting our loss of control and istead focusing on what we can control, and then moving on again if we lose control of that.
When we see Soke demonstrating, and it looks like he in total control of his opponent, I wonder if this is really what we are seeing. Are we seeing someone who is in total and constant control, or somwone who knows when to let go and change what he is doing. This is a kind of control itself, but it is a shifting control, that looks continuous, but is in fact a quick succession of different kinds of control. Does this make any sense?
If this is right, then it should direct the way we train.
Is this Juppo Sessho?
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"Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action
arises by itself?"
Lao Tzu (Dao De Ching)
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splinter
Old Hand
19 Posts |
 Posted - 14/09/2006 : 20:40:40
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In asnswer to your question yes, I'm not so sure about Soke, because he is just something else, if you read the Kukan message, he has that E.S.P thing I think, or as you said maybe this is just his juppo sessho is great, where everyone elses is just good.
I hope it does direct the way we train, even if it makes life more difficult for Uke and Tori.
Now lets see what other people think, come on it has been read 25 times.
ksthomas |
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thekeeper
Waffler Extraordinaire
55 Posts |
Posted - 14/09/2006 : 23:27:28
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I'm not sure about the "Juppo sessho". We did a lot of stuff at the seminar about taking your oponents attention to one place and then striking at a different place and it was really good. If this is the tiger and the dragon i don't know. I know that there are some parts of ninja that can't be taught. Or are very hard to teach. The feelings within a fight and the ways to move around your partner. These things only come with experience inside the dojo and outside. tho i hope no-one ever has to experience these things outside the dojo.
I do think that your wrong tho Jon. A fight can be controlled. It takes a lot of skill. More than i have. but it can be done. there will always be things that change the direction of the fight or random influence on the fight. But that is not the same as you not being in control. When you change a technique in the dojo that is you keeping controll. not loosing it. unless ur talking about the empty minded feeling when within a fight where ur body reacts without your mind thinking about it. giving control over to your training. all our training lets us control some aspect of it. from our stances controlling where we are going to be struck, to the technique moving an oponents body. it takes skill and a lot of practise to be able to do it. i beleive this is what Pino spoke about at his last seminar.
I know that i haven't articulated myself well. may try again after more sleep. |
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PaulB
Overfiend
50 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2006 : 00:26:38
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my two pence, for what its worth;
is that i aim personally not to try to control the situation, just to move in safety (endurance?) and let them put themselves into trouble. (Apart from when i get it wrong and try to dictate what they are doing through fighting with them- always a mistake which karle thankfully points out to me!)
It might look like you're 'in control' from the outside, but thats not whats going on, its just that they're losing control through what they give you.
Maybe its not about trying to take control, or be in control, just about enduring and recieving the opportunities they (and the bujin?) give to you, in a grateful manner......
The only thing it might be said you are controlling is the kukan...(if you're lucky!)
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"Although we may be meeting for the first time, I accept everyone as a friend.
In truth we already know one another, profoundly, as human beings who share the same goals:
We all seek happiness and do not want suffering"
-HH the Dalai Lama-
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PaulB
Overfiend
50 Posts |
 Posted - 15/09/2006 : 00:33:54
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hmm, this should have tagged on the end of that, but didn't.
it may seem that the above is just semantics, however, sometimes i feel sometimes there can be vital points overlooked/hidden in the semantics...(just read any of hatsumis more recent books for examples of this...and possibly a headache!!) |
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ivesjz
Banging On A Bit
75 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2006 : 08:52:35
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Paul, I think you are right about the importance of semantics here. I thnk the reason that Adam and I seem to disagree is because we understand the word 'control' differently.
Adam, can I ask what you actually mean by 'control'?
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"Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action
arises by itself?"
Lao Tzu (Dao De Ching)
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thekeeper
Waffler Extraordinaire
55 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2006 : 11:37:05
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To me control would be choosing what happens next. To be able to end the fight or to let it carry on.
What would be your definition?
It is not "I am doing this" but an inner realisation that "This is happening through me". |
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Oni
Old Hand
20 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2006 : 11:05:32
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Getting back to the thread,personally i believe that through the use of Juppo Sessho you ultimately control the kukan so both ideas are inextricably linked. Ok now to explain a little further this whole idea that we cannot control an altercation,we can only let whatever happens happen.Surely if we are aware we are already starting to control the KUKAN(space,time & distance).With correct use of kamae & application of the attitudes behind/linked with those Kamae you can keep said assailant at bay, then altering your kamae to show a perceived weakness.The assailant attacks that weakness you have deliberately given thus controlling the space.It's like a game of chess you are not thinking about the next move but you are thinking about the 5th move.
So in any real altercation you should not be thinking about one technique you should be thinking about how the Uke will ultimately be defeated ,as Hatsumi has said that you crush the uke with all of your INTENT !!!
Remember the Dragon represents wisdom so it sets up the technique by taking the balance/distracting the uke where as the Tiger is the strength in the technique ,like Yin & Yang ,In & Yo you can not have one without the other.
So ultimately as Hatsumi as said you cannot teach it , it just happens through experience not unlike the Sakki test but my belief is by learning the Bujinkan RyuHa you are getting yourself onto the path.Just a brief reminder as how Hatsumi taught the idea of Juppo Sessho was by incorporating it with the teaching of Takagi Yoshin Ryu & the uses of the Kunai in 2003.Sorry if i have rambled on a bit.Carl
P.S. it might be a good idea to pick up a copy of Arnaud Corseuge(yes i know thats not how you spell it)Dvd and book on Juppo Sessho from BudoMart .
Never talk about your knowledge as you could lose it,
Confront a defeat with a smile even if you are closely facing it,
and when you are looking into death's eyes,die laughing !!
Toda Shinryuken
32nd Soke Togakure Ryu Ninpo |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2006 : 14:01:44
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Right seeing as the semantics appear to scare people away, wonder why  !
Figure I'll put my 2 pence worth in, my thoughts so bare with me.
The way I see it with space and its manipulation/mastery/maintenance (note I'm loathed to use the term control as it took many years as a child before I could control my bowels, therefore it should take me an equally long time, if not longer, to learn to control the space, once i know that's what i'm learning to do)
You will have no doubt noticed that when hatsumi does move (not saying that's where any of us are but it certainly helps put things in perspective), it seems to be in a half ars*d manner, though I don't think it's the right way to describe it it does seem appropriate, the reason is he controls the space by not having an absolute control, the control is much more of the let things happen and manipulate them slightly. To try and have absolute control (much like a dictatorship say) only leads to getting hit, because when you look to only achieve one thing with single mindedness, your mind/body doesn't have the flexibility to take things in, bit like when you try and force a technique on it won't work well.
The kukan, and juppo sessho seem to be more things that you look retrospectively with you pint and pipe after the long day, it certainly massages the ego to think that you can control everything in a technique, but it is a little more difficult than that; I'll try and explain:
In physics/physical chemistry you define your universe beyond which the experiments effects don't go beyond. In some gas phase thermodynamics you define what effects occur where, and the main one is were the energy dissappears to. This is defining the universe/the space of the reality/the chemistry reactions kukan if you will. If you do the reverse in techniques you are defining which space you work in, then allowing yourself the idea of control (your juppo sessho). But what if the attackers kukan is different and juppo sessho is different?
I think that use of juppo sessho in the kukan, would imply no attack ever occuring. To be in control means there won't be an attack.
But i also think the way you percieve it is yours and your own, much the same with all these concepts (and definitions): make people think, but don't tell them that they are catergorically wrong.
As for the tiger and the dragon, just metaphores to describe the methods of controlling space.
Hope that vaguely makes sense, teach me to ramble
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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ivesjz
Banging On A Bit
75 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2006 : 14:22:15
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In reply to Carl: That doesn't seem like total control to me. You can control what you do and you can hope that your assailant does what you want him do to, but the control that is needed to control thefight is exactly the one thing that cannot be controlled. You cannot control what your assailant is going to do next - you can only react to it. You can tempt him yes, but you cannot determine what he will do. Beacsue of this I would never want to rely on it.
In reply to Adam: my response to Carl might give away what I mean by 'control'. To 'control' a fight, the way I understand it, is to determine what happens within it and thus determine the outcome. And, as my resonse to Carl says, I don't think that is possible to determine evrything that happens in a fight, and hence a fight cannot be controlled, but only reacted to.
But, people might think that this has nothing to do with Juppo Sessho?
I think Matt actually got it spot on... Nice point about masageing the ego.
We don't like to accept that we are not in control, and luck/fate/whatever you want to call it is so random that we don't like to think that we rely on it at all - but my belief is that we do, all the time. Control, of the kind we would like to think we have, is a fabrication, a concept devised to allow us to live in comfort and fear less often and les completely.
So, perhaps Jupo Sessho, done well, creates the illusion of a kind of control that is not realy there - coming back to my belief that Soke does not actually control a fight in the absolute way that we commonly think of as control, but simply reacts well to what his opponent does - though obviously making use of space etc. as he does so.
(please note that despite my style, I am not stating this as fact - although strangely, I do think it is true...otherwise I wouldn't say it)
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"Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action
arises by itself?"
Lao Tzu (Dao De Ching)
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2006 : 16:39:51
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I still actually think that things can be controlled but there is an element of that which you cannot, and I think that may truelly be what the tiger and the dragon are about, the tiger the actuallity in what you do the dragon, the mental draw: the luck, the fate, the mythics, which you can hope to understand and "control" but hey when i get there I'll have a party!
I think the things that you can control are juppo sessho, those which you can't are still juppo sessho, this is the kukan.
Maybe we give ourselves the illusion of control, because may be sometimes we can control, the best illusions are the ones which can be believed, or the ones which are the closest to reality.
This is why the semantics of control were superfluous (my opinion) as the word doesn't really explain the depth of it, you need many words.
Matt stopping his rambling, he should have better things to do at the moment . . .
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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Jo M
Newbie
9 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2006 : 14:44:29
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Can a lowly kyu grade offer her confusion and opinions??
First things first, I don't understand the words. It's clearly a case of English not having good enough translations, and I haven't heard the words enough times in context to get a clear idea of their meanings.
The way I understand this conversation to have gone is in the discussion of control (although I like Matt's term of manipulation better). Whether or not it is ever possible to control a situation or another person is irrelevant until you discover whether you have the ability to control yourself (is this is an interpretation of kukan? or at least an aspect of it?). I certainly can't. The nearest I've been to understanding this concept is through dance, where developing control of your own body within the stage area and how it appears to an audience was central. But it's been a while and factoring in another person and their body (and mind and spirit) into the equation makes things more complex.
Taking this on a bit of a tangent, I’m becoming more aware of this idea of control over the self. Much of our training revolves around control of the body, but developing control of the mind and spirit are also so important to what we (try to) do. In bringing the topic around to ‘real’ situations (thank you Jon) as opposed to dojo simulations, it is the holistic approach to self defence that becomes, at least to me, important.
We train our bodies mindlessly every day, even when not in time set aside for ‘training’ (for many of us, this is Tues evenings and a few hours over the weekend – a maximum of 6 out of 168 hours in a week. This is not a lot). We become more adept at feeling our balance, learning more about our physical capabilities, and working on them in almost any activity you can think of. From a self defence point of view, our 3 times a week sessions and Coops seminars emphasise the importance of making the body strong (not the right word, I know) against physical attack.
But what of the mind and spirit? Well, to an extent, the mind issue was addressed by the Coops seminar I went to last year, as the psychological effects of an attack were discussed. The ideas of mindful awareness of surroundings and at least trying to get used to the disorientating effects of attacks aren’t new, but equally probably aren’t discussed enough. Yet this is still is focused around the idea of a physical threat (although, reading this back, I see that the word threat crosses the border between physical and psychological attacks). Perhaps it’s more of a female thing, but psychological attacks (bitchy female bullying for example) in my experience can have an equal, if not greater, effect on a persons life. And we only really have life experience to protect us from it.
I’m aware I’m now venturing way off topic, but in the interests of completeness (and for my own personal interest in trying to understand my own thoughts at the moment!) I will continue.
There is, of course, the more esoteric aspects of the art, the exploration of meditation and ki work that has the potential to influence mind/body/spirit. Another thread by Karle began to introduce the idea of the subconscious states (mushin….), which, to my very vague and limited knowledge of this area, becomes an essential link between the mind/body/spirit. So perhaps it is this area that I seek to understand further?
I have been purposely looking (as exclusively as possible) on the individual in all this, but even I can see this is an incomplete model. I believe that it is impossible, particularly at my level to fully manipulate (control) another person (in body, mind and especially spirit). It is a marginally more attainable goal to try to control the self (again, mind, body and spirit). However, what of the relationship between the two (and between everything if one believes everything is linked)? Can this be controlled? Is it just controlled via the control of the self (which is itself manipulated by other things, the environment, the other person…)? What other factors are there?
In training we simulate situations using the uke-tori relationship. We endeavor to make this as realistic as possible, but by its very nature (i.e. to encourage safety in the dojo) it is inherently unrealistic as a model. There is no way round this to my mind – not getting too broken is important to me!! It’s funny, but the connection between training and life becomes apparent at such times – there are elements of our training in the dojo, but we learn other skills (vital to overall ‘training’) in our daily lives. Studying and working develops endurance, commitment, planning. Our friends, family and home lives teaches us to understand others, helps us learn compassion and empathy and living in harmony with other people. Our changing environment allows us to understand the importance of a flexible mind, lets us value awareness of the incredible world around us. Pain and suffering in the world teaches us their effects, tests our ability to get back up again. So much to learn outside the dojo.
Matt brought the topic back to “the tiger and the dragon” metaphor. In terms of how it affects the relationship between people, it seems to me to be about different ways of approach, the difference between ura and omote techniques, along with the philosophy behind them, and to my (still a newbie) mind is linked with the ‘natural’ idea of the void in our sanshin. There is an idea of deceit inherent in the concept of the dragon, using confusion and deception to affect an opponents perception of their control. Actually, using the word opponent should be wrong, it seems against the mindset of creating a harmony between two individuals’ movements which is an undercurrent in this thread. I think??? The intellegence of what we do is one of the things that makes me enjoy training so much. "The Dragon see's all and knows all, thus the tiger act's". It's one of the reasons for why we have so few set katas.
I appologise for the waffling nature of this post – I find it hard to stay on topic at the best of times, and all this has been me trying to figure out my thoughts and put them down in a semi-coherent manner. (I failed!)
*thoughtful*
Jo
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Jo M
Newbie
9 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2006 : 14:46:23
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| Wow - that was long, sorry!!! Jo |
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Cannon_Fodder
Not so Fiendish Admin
106 Posts |
Posted - 25/09/2006 : 16:18:45
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Made sense. Proof that lowly kyu grades can make a contribution (where are the rest then!), there are some nice ideas and expansions and you've attempted to draw a lot of conclusions from eveybody elses ideas. Funny seems like you've paying a lot of attention whilst conversations have been going on around you and playing the fool to the rest of us
Very good.
Btw Carl actually talks of the psychology about crushing people with intent, this is one aspect both mental and spiritual in the techniques/confrontation.
A lot of things within this thread are still hypothetical to us, people associated with universities we think too much (where it may be better spent elsewhere in some cases!) And with this we talk of things that in training may be beyond us, but give us something to aspire to, this in itself probably matters more, not where we are on the path, but where we hope to get to on the path.
But having said all this your post makes better sense of this than all of my posts, in that I failed
Matt
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switerzland they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock
Orson Welles |
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splinter
Old Hand
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 22:58:52
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Okay time to get you guys to look again, I love what you guys are all writing, but as always I like to shake things up, and get you all thinking again!
Do we Control the Kukan/Space? Yep maybe we can from the begining, by not being there in the first place. Is this ultimate control of the Kukan/Space?
No we can not control the Kukan from the begining of the fight! We can leave the opening /weakness for Uke/the attack to exploit, but who is to say how Uke will react, will it be a straight punch, jab, hook uppercut, or even a kick, we all hope uke/the attacker is clever enough to exploit this weakness, but who is to say how thick Uke/the attacker is, we hope we have left the opening for a straight punch to the head, but darn it Uke does a hook instead!, or should it be as Carl said, that it is okay we are thinking 5 steps ahead so it does not matter!?.
As I said I like to get you guys thinking.
One thing I think also is missed by Shihan so far, or just not mentioned is Breath being part of Kukan too, maybe this is because that part is hard to understand, also not metioned so far on other site/Forums I have read on the subject is Cause Uke/Attacker to rest when he does not wish to rest, and move when he is not ready to move.....Oh the breath thing can come under this too, but causing him to not breath correctly, for those that have trained with me a while think of the ground fighting, getting Uke to change his breathing, or think of bear huggs and how we use our breath then...Is this also not controling the Kukan /Space.
Sensei Andy Young if you are reading this Forum it would be nice to hear your veiw point on this stuff, same goes for Ikram too, be nice to hear from you.
As I said like to shake things up, lookfoward to seeing what else this gets you all thinking about.
Karle/ Splinter.
ksthomas |
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Words on Juppo Sessho, by Soke and Karle.
