Ninpo-Budo Forum
Ninpo-Budo Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?





 All Forums
 Ninpo
 Philosophy
 What is a Master?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Paddy
Old Hand


16 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2005 :  15:56:30  Show Profile  Visit Paddy's Homepage  Click to see Paddy's MSN Messenger address Send Paddy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reviving an old debate that was particularly stimulating (well, for me anyhow ).

Simply - we often refer to someone as a master of their art, but what is a Master?



"Death is more universal than life. Everyone dies, but not everyone lives." - A. Sachs

PaulB
Overfiend



50 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2005 :  16:28:01  Show Profile Send PaulB a Private Message  Reply with Quote
can i refer people back to my post for this one on the old forum, if anyone wants my spin on this- just to be lazy with typing!
Go to Top of Page

Paddy
Old Hand



16 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2005 :  16:47:57  Show Profile  Visit Paddy's Homepage  Click to see Paddy's MSN Messenger address Send Paddy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you never heard of copy/paste? *tuts*

Paul wrote (in response to Karle originally asking this question):
quote:
hhhm... an interesting discussion you've started here karle, and everyone seems to have taken the subject in a new direction!

Another point is to look at the idea of wanting to "become a master".
Those who seek to "attain mastery" are already viewing it as something which is out there- seperate from them, a state which can be seized only by obtaining something more (more skill, more flexibility, more techniques, more meditation, etc). With this approach we are looking at mastery as a process of accumulation.
It’s a very easy viewpoint to have, yet what is it's value? As a tool to do more of these things it has obvious inspirational value, yet if we have a look at this idea from the perspectives of some of the traditions that underlie ninpo, then we may begin to see an alternative approach.

Taoism, Buddhism and Shugendo view the concept of "a master" to be that of being a complete person- a being who is in tune with themselves in every sense and therefore dispays a sense of mastery in all they do (a buddha in Buddhist doctrine and tatsujin in Taoist theory). With this definition of mastery in mind, these approaches look on the concept of mastery as something which cannot be achieved through accumulation, and indeed frown upon the fixation on accumulation as a path to achievement.

"Becoming" a master is believed to be a flawed concept, and accumulation as an approach is portrayed as the basis for much of human suffering. In Buddhism the "third noble truth" states that we are responsible for our own suffering (dharma)- through the processes of attachment to things and the belief that achieving enough of these things (be they material possessions, states of mind, taijutsu techniques, etc) will lead to satisfaction. As a result we end up always grasping for more, never reaching the satisfaction we seek. This is the basis for the earlier comment that the accumulatory approach may have value as a motivator- but might never lead to the end that is sought.

Instead, these systems propose that we already have the potential to be all that we ever can be- we all already have the mastery we seek, we merely need discover how we are obstructing ourselves, remove those obstructions and that mastery will be revealed.

Thus, perhaps the problem is not what new movements are needed...its what movements need to be cut away to reveal the taijutsu we are capable of. Its not what states of mind must be added...it's what states must be removed to reveal our inherent "mind and eyes of god".
The key, therefore, lies in self-examination, paring away the unnecessary until the “gleaming gem” of the unfeterred (action, mind, taijutsu, spirit…the list goes on) is revealed.

Perhaps, therefore, an alternative approach for one seeking mastery is that of not-seeking. You are already walking the path, you merely need to clear the foliage away to see it! This is an approach of subtraction rather than addition, where satisfaction and mastery are already there, it is merely a case of truly recognising this in everything we do.

The question (of course) comes down to how we define mastery. The person who is accomplished in the non-seeking approach above could be incapable of an enormous repertoire of defined techniques, or lack comprehensive knowledge of which techniques are involved with which systems, yet might always respond appropriately to a situation, giving everything they have in an integrated fashion in each moment.
Which is the real “master”?

For those wondering where all this came from, I think my Queenie alter-ego’s going monastic on me…




"Death is more universal than life. Everyone dies, but not everyone lives." - A. Sachs
Go to Top of Page

Charlie
Old Hand



16 Posts

Posted - 13/05/2005 :  15:48:00  Show Profile Send Charlie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
‘Master’ is as arbitrary a term as any title, so it is only relevant to analyse it within a certain framework, for us within the martial arts. Again, even in this context it is widely used for various reasons and people (I believe in Kung Fu it is same as title Sensei in Japanese martial arts). Grand Master denotes a head of a school, at one point Stu use to be Grandmaster of Ear Plug Jutsu (we got very bored working on security). So to me it seems Master denotes a position and only through action can you see someone’s true ability.
Go to Top of Page

ivesj
Fiend



6 Posts

Posted - 16/05/2005 :  15:21:06  Show Profile  Visit ivesj's Homepage Send ivesj a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you'll you'll find that it was actually Lo Wang who was Grandmaster of the school of Ear-Plug Jutsu, and not Stu.

As for the whole master thing, like Charlie said, it's an arbitrary title that only makes sense within a given context, the fulfilment of which is governed by norms set out and accepted by people operating within that context.
technically in the Bujinkan, a Godan rank is a rank of mastery, hence if you have your 5th Dan, you can call yourself, and be treated as, a master. Of course we all know that this is I'm so angry I could scream! , and that the attainment of rank is not synonymous with the attainment of mastery.

There is nothing that it takes 'to be a master', and I think it's all a bit of a pointless endeavour to try to discover it. Mastery of yourslef may be another thing. Are any of us truly masters of ourselves? I'm not saying it's possible, but surely you cannot be a master of anything else until you are a master of yourself?

"Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself?"

Lao Tzu (Dao De Ching)


Jon Ives
ivesjz@adf.bham.ac.uk
0121 414 7849
http://www.pcpoh.bham.ac.uk/primarycare/cbme/
Go to Top of Page

Antonik
Old Hand



16 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2005 :  21:40:50  Show Profile Send Antonik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is a master just a matter of opinion? If we saw a high ranking practioner of ninpo-budo would we think that he was a master cos what he could do would be so far above anything we could, but would the same practioner as seen by someone with a greater profincy in ninpo as a student because he can see where there needs to be improvement. I would look at a master as someone who teahes the teachers - although that takes us back to the question of what defines a teacher?

"For that which once existed is no more, and that which was not has come to be; and so the whole round of motion is gone through again." Ovid, Metamorphoses
Go to Top of Page

RichL
Old Hand



15 Posts

Posted - 29/09/2005 :  13:22:53  Show Profile Send RichL a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you can think of master as a title or a rank, you would refer to a teacher (maths or PE) as sir they did nothing for this title other than BE a teacher. so any instructor can and often do call themselves master because OTHERS call them it.

if we go with the rank argument then one master per school one grand master per dicipline
promotion by combat or dead mans shoes.

"the pointy end goes in the other guy"
Go to Top of Page

lowang
Newbie

1 Posts

Posted - 26/10/2005 :  14:41:50  Show Profile Send lowang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, Lo Wang was and still is grand master of earplug jutsu....amongst other things.
Go to Top of Page

ivesjz
Banging On A Bit



75 Posts

Posted - 26/10/2005 :  14:59:24  Show Profile Send ivesjz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is Lo Wang still teaching ear-plug-jutsu. I reckon there are people still willing to learn thsi ancient art....

=============================================

"Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action
arises by itself?"

Lao Tzu (Dao De Ching)
Go to Top of Page

telecino
Newbie



3 Posts

Posted - 23/06/2006 :  03:01:35  Show Profile  Visit telecino's Homepage Send telecino a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe a master (small m) is someone who masters a technique in its application; while a Master (capital M) is someone who masters himself in a spiritual way, someone who attained consciousness of his art.

Become a master of yourself: http://www.livemaster.org
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Ninpo-Budo Forum © 2000-2005 University of Birmingham Ninpo-Budo Club Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.67 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA
ForumCo Free Blogs and Galleries
Signup for a free forum or Go Banner Free